THE INTERVIEW
This segment of the article features a Q&A with filmmaker, author and film historians Laurent Bouzereau, Marcus Hearn, Patrick Read Johnson, Michael Kaminski, and Mike Matessino. The interviews were conducted separately and have been edited into a “roundtable” format.
Laurent Bouzereau is the author of Star Wars: The Annotated Screenplays (1996, Titan).
Marcus Hearn is the author of The Cinema of George Lucas (2005, Abrams).
Patrick Read Johnson is the writer and director of 5-25-77.
Michael Kaminski is the author of The Secret History of Star Wars (2008, Legacy).
Mike Matessino wrote the liner notes and supervised the editing and assembly of the Star Wars Trilogy Special Edition soundtrack albums.
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Michael Coate (The Digital Bits): In what way is The Empire Strikes Back worthy of celebration on its 35th anniversary?
Laurent Bouzereau: Anything Star Wars is worth celebrating!
Marcus Hearn: There is an enormous affection for The Empire Strikes Back. I think most fans regard it as the finest film in the series.
Patrick Read Johnson: It is, undeniably, the cinematic fork in the road that altered the direction of the Star Wars universe, its characters, and its fans, toward a better destination. It was the missing link between Star Wars (it wasn’t called Episode ANYTHING when I first saw it!) and the little J.J. Abrams film we’re all waiting for NOW.
Michael Kaminski: Firstly, it’s important from a business standpoint. Empire Strikes Back was the film that turned Star Wars from a sensationally popular film to a franchise. Of course, there were sequels back then (Rocky II, Jaws 2); but, in hindsight it’s a signifier of something far greater than just a sequel. The term “franchise” is a synonym for gold in Hollywood these days. In a world of Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, the Marvel Cinematic Universe, etc., it’s not enough to just have sequels to a successful movie, but an entire WORLD of spinoffs, sequels and further adventures that can continue the brand indefinitely. There was the Marvel comic series and Splinter of the Mind’s Eye before Empire, but Empire was THE BIG ONE, the canon-level, big-budget, big deal that not only furthered the story and built up the Galaxy Far, Far Away, but also hinted on a cliff-hanger and opened up a bag of worms about the backstory—the first hint that there was more than just another sequel in story, or even a “continuing series.” Lucas was publically talking about twelve films, then nine, three trilogies connected together, and who knows where that would lead beyond that. A true cinematic universe—a franchise. Really, it had never been done before, on that scale. It has taken Hollywood three decades to wise up to the business savvy Lucas had (as he also knew it would continue to fund Lucasfilm for the more-or-less indefinite future). But I think beyond that, and a bunch of other factors I could go on about (“I am your father,” Yoda, etc.). Empire Strikes Back is worth celebrating just because it is a brilliant and beautiful film. Star Wars was fun because a big part of it was its function as a sort of post-modern pastiche piece, where the more you knew about the history of movies the more you would understand how it paid tribute and parody to them—a lot like how a film like Shrek works for kids who don’t know the history of fairy tales and fantasy films, but also for the adults who gets the references and commentary on clichés and the like. But Empire wasn’t like that. It took its world at face value; it took it seriously as a means unto itself. The next time I think a film of the same caliber did such a thing was when Peter Jackson made his Lord of the Rings trilogy, and while the final film was lavished in Oscars for its brilliance and maturity, Empire got only a fraction of such pedigree (despite getting pretty good reviews, mind you). It’s beautifully written, photographed, directed and acted, with technical credentials surpassing the first film. It took me about ten years to understand what the heck was happening in the surreal Dagobah dream sequence where Luke cuts off Darth Vader’s head—as a kid, I didn’t understand the metaphor, but it still spoke to me on an instinctive, mythological metaphor. A scene like that was only possible in a film like Empire—it was like Ingmar Bergman for children. Today, including a scene like that would still be impressive. In 1980? Incredible. That’s part of the reason the film still holds up; it feels modern, not dated, and that’s a testament to how far ahead of its time it was and why it still has impact to us today.
Mike Matessino: Any movie that is still loved and having sequels released thirty-five years later is worth celebrating. Everything Star Wars is being celebrated this year, of course, because of the new movie opening in December.
Coate: When did you first see Empire and what was your reaction?
Bouzereau: I saw it in Montreal, where I was studying English, the day it came out. I saw it in English, without French subtitles, at a time when I wasn’t fluent. So when Darth Vader told Luke he was his father, I thought I had misunderstood. But I quickly realized that it was the case. I was blown away.
Hearn: I saw it in England on its original release. I thought it was incredible. Spectacular and rather unsettling for a ten year-old.
Johnson: I saw it opening day in Hollywood, having just finished a cross-country road trip in my Ford Pinto. I didn’t even stop to unpack before heading down to the Egyptian Theater parking in a space that was sure to get me ticketed, and running up the four-block line to get the only ticket I gave a damn about.
Kaminski: Most people are surprised to learn I was born after all three films were released. I was the generation that grew up with them on home video. Star Wars has just kind of always “been there.” As much as I would have liked to have experience the films there is a certain comfort that they have been this constant in my life since as long as I’ve had memories.
Matessino: I cut school on opening day and was first in line at 8 a.m. at the General Cinema Central Plaza in Yonkers, New York. The show as at 12:15 p.m. and I sat through it twice. I absolutely loved it, although I already knew all of the spoilers beforehand.
Coate: Back in 1979/80 there was no Internet or Social Media or 24-hour news, and home-video and cable TV were in their infancy. Describe what it was like enduring the time from the moment you learned there was to be a sequel to Star Wars and the period leading up to Empire’s release.
Bouzereau: It was really fun to try and collect everything ESB. I remember getting the novelization, the making of book, the official movie magazine, the posters, and, of course, the soundtrack. I still have all that stuff!
Hearn: It was exciting. I’m sure there was a lot of advance publicity, but the only element of that I remember was a serialization of the story in the British newspaper the Daily Mirror. As far as I remember, Darth Vader’s confession to Luke came as a genuine surprise.
Johnson: Interestingly enough, it wasn’t all that hard because neither I, nor anyone else, really EXPECTED to know much about what was coming a year or two down the line. We didn’t know anything about “spoilers,” because, by and large, they didn’t materialize in those days. In fact, I sort of forgot about Empire until one day in April of 1980, when I walked into a record store and saw and immediately purchased the Empire Soundtrack album. And, of course, the instant I put it on the turntable, I was suddenly desperate to know EVERYTHING I could about the film John Williams’ new leitmotifs were describing!
Kaminski: I wanted to capture the experience of seeing them for the first time for my book though, but it wasn’t hard; a lot of the adults I grew up with had lots of stories of their own experience, as did fellow fans, and I had read and absorbed a lot of the now-vintage behind-the-scenes material since I was a kid. I also bought a lot of old magazines, newspapers, talk show videos, even stuff like letters-to-the-editor in everything from Time to Starlog to get a better sense of the on-the-ground reaction to it all. Being a historian by nature and even working in the film industry, I also had a pretty firm sense of the films context in movie history. So I pretty well understand what it was like at the time, and tried to capture that in my book, but I wasn’t actually there. I was born in 1984.
Matessino: I believe that in a book called The Star Wars Album it mentioned that there would be a sequel in the fall of 1978! It turns out all we got was The Star Wars Holiday Special. News at that time mostly came from the science fiction magazines Starlog, Fantastic Films and Cinefantastique. There were several articles that parsed out information and pictures for Empire beginning in 1978. I didn’t find it hard to endure the wait because there were other great genre movies to see such as Close Encounters, Superman, Alien, Star Trek and The Black Hole, plus we had Battlestar Galactica and Buck Rogers on TV. Star Wars played all through the summer of 1978 and the toys and other tie-in merchandise kept coming. One interesting thing was the early release of the Boba Fett action figure, which was promoted, as I recall, as “an important new character from the continuing Star Wars saga.” And, of course, he was first introduced on the aforementioned Holiday Special. The first footage from Empire came with a teaser trailer shown during the August 1979 reissue of Star Wars and that was very cool to see. However, I can recall audiences having snarky responses to the fact that it was coming “next summer.” One interesting promotion that Lucasfilm did in early 1980 was that you would call 1-800-521-1980 in the weeks leading up to the release of Empire. Each week you’d hear a different character telling you something about the movie. Finally seeing it when it was new was great. We had a 70mm print and it wasn’t until several viewings later that I saw it in 35mm at a different theater and discovered that there were some differences. To this day the little bits of the 70mm version that were different have not been released.
Coate: In what way was it beneficial (or detrimental) for Lucas to hire a director for Empire instead of directing it himself as he had done on the original movie?
Bouzereau: I think George chose “wisely” when he selected Irvin Kershner to direct ESB. I think it allowed George to embrace the film in a different way. The thing that’s extraordinary is that ESB has the same tone and sensibility as Star Wars.
Hearn: It’s impossible to know exactly what George Lucas would have done with the film if he had directed it himself, but Kershner did a superb job with the excellent screenplay. The middle film of the trilogy was always going to have the most challenging narrative structure.
Johnson: Though he surely didn’t intend it to happen, once he let go of the reigns, George freed Star Wars to run wild. And once it was let loose like that, and allowed to mature and evolve and reach for greater heights, it could never really be put back in the stable. And while we know he was unhappy with the result—which is natural and understandable for the creator of a Universe who has suddenly lost control of it—Empire undoubtedly changed the DNA of so many of the young writers, directors, and VFX people who are now laboring to bring Star Wars under control again. And I’m betting George, when he finally sees what J.J. and Kathy Kennedy have wrought, is going to be immensely proud. As he should be.
Kaminski: I think it’s rather obvious, but in most respects George Lucas is not a particularly good director and that is something he has freely admitted to. Yet, he has directed at least two incredible classics of cinema—how? At the time, he was well aware of his limitations, and he understood the ways in which they could be circumvented. Help on the screenplays; good actors with good chemistry that could overcome his directorial flaws; getting constant feedback on what wasn’t working; and, probably more than is given credit, the fresh eyes of a young man full of good ideas in an industry that had never made the types of films he was interested in. George Lucas is a genius, but he’s a conceptual genius—he can come up with Star Wars and Raiders and Graffiti, he can guide them to how they can be made, but he needs someone else to write the words and make the films come to life. How did he seemingly do this himself with Star Wars? In short, he didn’t. He had constant feedback and criticism on the screenplay; Gloria Katz and Willard Huyck even did a rough polish to make the characters more compelling, and the characters were very relatable and given freedom by the actors to make them their own. Add that to the totally unlikely coincidence of having Ralph McQuarrie, John Dykstra, Dennis Muren, Ben Burtt and John Williams, plus the best editing team I can think of ALL ON THE SAME FILM. And it’s all being done without the traditional restraints of a studio picture but instead to the whims of a millionaire comic book nerd in an age where that wasn’t seen as cool. Of course it’s going to be awesome!.... But Lucas knew he could get away with directing that kind of film in that kind of way. The sequel needed to be bigger and better, but also held to standards he was incapable of providing as a director. As a conceptualist; as a hand-on producer; yeah. That’s his strength. Star Wars works as a conceptual film, as a nostalgic pastiche piece that overcomes any shallowness by engaging our knowledge of its references. It steals from the best. You get a saloon brawl with a samurai cutting off a fugitive’s arm, a cowboy blowing away a hitman collecting a debt, and a freaking band of space aliens playing 1930s swing music while The Wolfman drinks a beer—just re-read that sentence. That’s a scene in Star Wars. It happens. And it’s awesome…. The sequel could have some of that, but it couldn’t really rely on it. It needed to go deeper. Rather than being a fun romp through a history of pop culture, it needed to take the world it had created at face value and confront it seriously. The characters needed to be more three-dimensional; the writing needed to be more natural; and it needed to have a more emotionally adult core. Lucas, frankly, didn’t have the talent to do that; and he didn’t want to—he was burned out. So everything fell into place where he would take his best characteristics—ideas—and have that be realized by a talented writing and directing team that also “got” the Star Wars universe. And a big part of it was that Lucas was excited by the fact that it would be different and other people could take what he created and run with it—he once compared it to a “film school competition,” with there being limitless sequels. The reality of what he was embarking on set in once filming began and that’s why that mentality went away. It was a lot of work and money. To us it was worth it, but the film didn’t turn out the way he had envisioned; it was too mature, too slow, and the time and expense were too much stress when you only have one life to live. One would think that would be part of the fun of a “film school competition” series where it’s “let’s see what THIS GUY does with Star Wars!” But that’s sort of a producer’s nightmare, and I think that’s what Lucas failed to grasp…. And that’s why Return of the Jedi is no Empire Strikes Back. He realized his mistake and made sure it didn’t repeat. He controlled things more closely, was involved every step of the way and sort of directed the whole thing over Richard Marquand’s shoulder. That guy doesn’t get enough credit, but I think it would be inaccurate to say that George Lucas’ conspicuous presence is the reason the third film doesn’t have the same feeling as the second one.
Matessino: I think it would have been fine either way, but in the end I think that because George wanted to focus on building up Lucasfilm it was good that Empire had a different tone and that the original Star Wars was able to keep its completely unique feel. Irvin Kershner did a brilliant job with Empire and it showed that the universe George created could be expanded and have other creative ideas brought into it.
Coate: Where do you think Empire ranks among sequels? Is Empire the best sequel ever made? And where do you think Empire ranks among the Star Wars franchise?
Bouzereau: It’s one of the best sequels. Or one of the best second films that’s part of a series. Is From Russia with Love considered a sequel to Dr. No? If so, that’s a pretty awesome film. As is The Godfather Part II…. I just watched all of [the Star Wars movies] again recently and it belongs exactly where it is: the second best. Star Wars is number one.
Hearn: Star Wars remains my favorite film in the series—nothing could surpass the initial impact of its innovation and effervescence. Empire is a very different film, with its own, unique merits. I think it ranks alongside From Russia with Love and The Godfather Part II as one of the greatest movie sequels ever made.
Johnson: No. That would be The Godfather II. But it’s right up there…. You know, as a piece of that freed-up, evolved, dramatically mature Star Wars universe everyone came to crave, after Episode V created it, Empire is certainly the “best” of the Star Wars films. But, it’s still not Star Wars. No matter what comes after, nothing—I repeat—NOTHING can top the feeling of watching the original cut of Star Wars, in a crowded theater, in the summer of 1977.
