THE Q&A
Justin Berger is the author of The Empire Strikes Back: Unauthorized Timeline 1975-2020 (2019, Anchorhead Publishing; and revised 2020 Collector’s Edition).
W.R. Miller is the author of The Star Wars Historical Sourcebook: Volume One 1971 to 1976 (2018, Pulp Hero Press).
Richard Woloski is the co-host of Skywalking through Neverland podcast.
The interviews were conducted separately and have been edited into a “roundtable” conversation format.
Michael Coate (The Digital Bits): How do you think The Empire Strikes Back should be remembered on its 40th anniversary?
Justin Berger: I think Empire should be remembered for taking unexpected risks in its storytelling. For not simply re-hashing the first Star Wars but taking it in a new and more interesting direction. It should also be remembered for breaking the mold in terms of sequels. Not to mention the special effects which at the time were cutting edge and ushered in a new era of FX for filmmaking. Mostly though it should be remembered for telling a good story. It’s a film that feels very intimate and personal, which says a lot for a blockbuster that features some very memorable FX scenes (Battle of Hoth, Asteroid chase). It really set the tone for what fantasy sci-fi could be. Lastly I think it should be remembered for its success in the face of adversity. It was over budget and everything was riding on its success or failure. If it had tanked we probably would not have heard from George Lucas again nor would we have Industrial Light & Magic. Empire should be remembered for changing the world in more ways than one.
W.R. Miller: The Empire Strikes Back is an example of a film succeeding after taking enormous risks — of George Lucas investing his own money, millions of dollars, to achieve his personal vision; of the film asking its audience to accept a little green latex puppet as a major character; of staging an epic battle at the beginning and not the end; of leaving its heroes in dire straits, “ending” with a cliffhanger. Had it not performed as well as it did at the boxoffice, the whole future of the Star Wars saga would have been truncated, as well as advancements in creature construction, visual effects, theatrical exhibition, and digital animation.
Lucas had announced eleven Star Wars films in which — according to producer Gary Kurtz — Luke Skywalker wouldn’t even meet the Emperor until Episode IX. Imagine: the Rebel Alliance still had to take on the Imperial Starfleet, involving potentially thousands of Star Destroyers. Who was “the Other”? What other Sith Lords posed a threat in the galaxy? Was Darth Vader really Luke’s dad — or was he a liar? The imagination boggled as to what would happen after Empire. Would the sequel tap into these invigorating potentials — or turn out to be a wasted opportunity?
Empire should also be remembered for making Industrial Light & Magic a permanent fixture for Lucasfilm, and thus benefit the visual effects industry. After Star Wars, many of the crew worked on Battlestar Galactica, which not only kept them employed, but helped prepare them for The Empire Strikes Back — particularly the two-part episode, The Gun on Ice Planet Zero.
Richard Woloski: The Empire Strikes Back should be remembered as one of the greatest films of all time! Not under the label of a science fiction film, fantasy film, and not even just a Star Wars film, but a great film.
Empire is the product that comes when everyone involved respects the source material enough to give it their “A” game. This proves that if filmmakers put attention and care into their story then they may also have a film where 40 years later it is finding a new audience and original fans are still gushing over it. The Star Wars sequel defined a culture where hard core and casual fans would have great conversations and heated debates over a fictional story. The film was made with such conviction that it imprinted on every type of audience member.
When fans think of Empire on its 40th Anniversary they’re going to lose themselves in nostalgic memories, or, younger fans will be doing the math in figuring out how much older the film is than they are.
Coate: What do you remember about the first time you saw Empire?
Berger: The first time I saw Empire was at home on TV. It was on a VHS tape and I was glued to the screen. I feel the way I do about it now as I did then. It’s magical. A truly amazing piece of visual storytelling. As a kid it shaped me in more ways than one and truly affected how I developed as a human being.
Miller: As a fan, I was dying to find out what happens. So I read Don Glut’s novelization, published [before the movie was released], and was stunned to learn about Luke’s parentage — though the secret had already been spoiled in the press months earlier. I also bought the double LP a few days before the film’s release. Good heavens! What depressing music! The opening titles, Yoda’s Theme and the Imperial March appealed, but not enough for me keep the records. I returned them for a refund. Only when I saw the film did I have the context to enjoy John Williams’s music. I now have CDs for the entire trilogy.
The film swept me into that galaxy far, far away and its craftsmanship — the visuals, the pacing, the acting, and to a large degree, the story — was outstanding. If only it had a resolution. It ended with frustration, leaving many questions unanswered. Empire was not the upbeat, swashbuckling joy ride of the first film.
Even Lucas admitted, “More than anything else, that was my biggest concern about this ending was, it really wasn’t an ending. The bad guys win and the good guys limp home wounded.” (George Lucas, DVD commentary, The Empire Strikes Back, 2004.)
A major disappointment was how Irvin Kershner devalued See-Threepio’s character, making him more annoying than ever. Originally, Lucas had envisioned the droid as a used-car salesman, with the ability to fast-talk his way out of predicaments. Such was not the case in Empire.
According to Jonathan Rinzler, Richard Marquand said, “I’d almost found Threepio a drag in Empire. I felt very awful that he’d been given dialogue to do because nobody could think of any way of filling in that space. He also represents the sort of character that I don’t get on with very well, the sort of character that always aggravates me. You can have a few laughs at his expense, but at certain moments I think it went a little too far. It turned out that George agreed with me, which was nice because I wasn’t sure whether he would.”
Threepio almost had a moment of cleverness in Empire. When the Imperials attacked Hoth base, he removed a warning sticker on a door with a room full of wampas — a bit glimpsed in trailer footage. Alas, it wound up on the cutting room floor.
On the years of release, I saw Star Wars twelve times. Empire, five times.
Woloski: I first saw Empire on opening day, May 21, 1980, when I was eleven years old. I didn’t know what to expect since the trailer didn’t look like what a Star Wars sequel should be. It was dark and foreboding and all my friends like Luke, Han, Threepio, and Chewbacca appeared as if they were being tortured or blown up! I remember being so frightened through the whole film especially when R2-D2 was pulled under the Dagobah swamp by some kind of fish monster. Irvin Kershner let his audience sit on the edge of their seat for an eternity wondering if we’re going to ever see the little droid again until he was finally spat out and hurled into the tangled trees.
By the time the “big moment” was revealed that (SPOILER ALERT) Darth Vader was Luke’s father I was too drained to fully take it in. I didn’t realize what Vader said until the second time I saw it. I was ecstatic in hearing the revelation! This meant my world of play was about to open up.
Coate: In what way is Empire a significant motion picture?
Berger: Empire is significant in the way it established itself as the perfect sequel — both in its storytelling and in its monetary success. It broke many molds during production (and records once it was released) and really made Lucasfilm and ILM a force to be reckoned with. Without Empire I don’t think we’d have ILM as it exists today and I really don’t think filmmaking in general would have developed as it has. You have an entire generation of young storytellers who grew up with the reveal of Darth Vader as Luke’s father and I know that affected kids’ minds — it affected mine for sure. It truly is a modern day fairy tale that reverberates with people on such a deep level that I personally think it impacted the world in a way that changed it forever.
Miller: Empire showed Hollywood that the Star Wars phenomenon was not a fluke, that big-budgeted SF films could be enormously successful at the box office, despite the relative failures of SF films from rival studios — The Black Hole, Star Trek: The Motion Picture, and Flash Gordon. Empire’s success gave George Lucas the funding he needed to build Skywalker Ranch, make Return of the Jedi, and establish Industrial Light & Magic as the premiere effects facility used by Hollywood. Lucas’s investment in R&D led to improvements in theatrical exhibition (the Theatre Alignment Program) and in the digital revolution (Star Trek II, Willow, The Abyss, Jurassic Park, and Pixar). It was Lucas, not Hollywood, that made these advancements.
Empire was also the last collaboration between Lucas and producer Gary Kurtz.
Woloski: There is so much that makes The Empire Strikes Back a significant film. New technology used to make creatures and all-terrain armored transports come to life. The gamble of using a puppet as an important character who continues Luke’s training in The Force. Most of all it isn’t just a sequel but a continuation. This was a very rare film of the time where sequels would just repeat and use the best-of moments from the original. I am so happy George Lucas never considered having our heroes make a pit stop back at the Mos Eisley Cantina like most filmmakers would have done.
I know before Empire there was The Godfather Part II in 1974 which used the continuation model with great success, but in a film that is made primarily for kids, it would be so tempting to throw anything at the young audience just to make a quick buck.
Coate: What are your thoughts on George Lucas’s decision to serve as executive producer on Empire rather than director as he did on the original movie?
Berger: I think Lucas’s choice to serve as executive producer helped the film move beyond the original. Even though he chose not to direct because of the problems he experienced on Star Wars, it allowed Star Wars to grow beyond Lucas’s own mind and evolve into something bigger and better. Bringing in Irvin Kershner was a blessing as Kershner was focused on the relationships between the characters — which Lucas was less interested in. Luckily Gary Kurtz was there to nurture Kershner’s directing style — even though it cost him his job and his relationship at the time with George. But still, that decision to step away as the director served the film best and I don’t think it would have been as successful if George had remained as director. It’s one of those “happy accidents” (so to speak) that wasn’t really a planned thing, but ended up being one of the main reasons for the movie’s success.
Miller: As a creator, Lucas has the right to hire others to handle his creations, whether it’s Richard Marquand directing Jedi, Ron Howard directing Willow, or trusting Disney to continue Star Wars. In 1978, he established Medway Productions to handle Lucasfilm productions other than Star Wars. They included More American Graffiti and Raiders of the Lost Ark. To direct Empire, he trusted his teacher at USC, Irvin Kershner — a trust that paid off. Until the prequels, Lucas’s plan had been to let others direct the films “then I want to do the last one, so I can do one twice as good as everybody else,” he told Rolling Stone in August 1977.
Woloski: Star Wars nearly killed George. He hated the writing process and wasn’t that comfortable directing actors with anything more than, “faster, more intense.” But he was never going to find a director that could see his vision so he knew he was the only one that could pull this space movie together. George did what a great leader does and that is to find someone else who can do the job better. And he found that person in Irvin Kershner!
George also didn’t want to be on a set for 12-15 hours a day doing one job, he wanted to work on many projects at the same time to support his company, Lucasfilm. With other projects he was working on like More American Graffiti, he knew he wouldn’t do Empire any justice if he chose to stay on as director and the Star Wars saga may have ended there.
